A conversation with Music Supervisor Joe Rudge who is known for his edgy projects such as Room, Blue Valentine, The Big Sick, Eighth Grade, and Midsommar.
We talk about where he finds music, the best way to connect with a music supervisor, and why this is such a great time to get sync licenses.
TRANSCRIPT
Rachel Hurley 0:00
Hi, everyone, I’m Rachel Hurley of Sweetheart Pub. And this week on Music Rookie is a conversation with music supervisor Joe Rudge. He’s based in Brooklyn and known for his edgy projects such as Blue Valentine, The Big Sick, Eighth Grade and Midsommar. But he works on bigger projects to most recently working with Netflix and Ron Howard on Hillbilly Elegy. Fun fact, Joe used to be my boss. I was the assistant music supervisor on two kids shows in the early 2000s, a Disney show and a Nickelodeon show. And those jobs really taught me a lot about how music gets put into film and television. So I figured I’d hit Joe up and pick his brain. In this episode, he gave me the lowdown on where he finds music, the best way to connect with a music supervisor, and why this is such a great time to get sync licenses, sync licenses, secret sync licenses, sync licenses.
Joe Rudge 1:08
And to think all started with music games.
Rachel Hurley 1:11
Right? Are you working on anything right now? Are you taking a break?
Joe Rudge 1:17
No, no, I’m busy. I’m working on a documententry series for HBO max. So that’s exciting. And that’s through Alex gave these company Jigsaw and I’m in the middle of it. Documentaries are still shooting. There are no restrictions to production, any sort of documentary production because they don’t require huge sets with production assistants and grips and what have you. So documentaries are much like animation and go, go, go. A lot are up and running right now. So I just lucked out and worked on this HBO series through a showrunner I’ve worked with in the past. And then I’m also working on wrapping up a feature film called Marcel the shell with shoes on. Have you ever saw Jenny slate’s short films? Marcel the shell?
Rachel Hurley 2:15
I did not.
Joe Rudge 2:17
They’re kind of brilliant. You should check them out after this. Yeah, there is a feature length film. So I’m working on something. It’s on Youtube. Check it out. It’s great. And so yeah, I’m busy between those. And I wrapped up a bunch of projects last month, which is nice, because they all pay out, obviously. And so it’s been a nice cushion for all this. I haven’t had to worry too much financially this year. But you worry about 2021 because it doesn’t seem like any of these productions will start this summer or even this fall.
Rachel Hurley 2:55
I definitely would be interested in hearing like what a day in the life of a music supervisor is. Like, what are the kind of things that you do every day? And of course, where do you find music for your projects? And what kind of stuff are you looking for? And I know that I’ve been told before that there are, I’ve read before about how like, if you want to put music into production, you need to have like an instrumental version of that song also, is that something that you always have to have?
Joe Rudge 3:27
No, I don’t need to have it at all. It’s preferred.
Rachel Hurley 3:30
Okay it is preferred, but you don’t have to have it. Okay. And then if you have any advice for musicians about how to get synched deals.
Joe Rudge 3:39
Yeah, these are the basic broad strokes, but they’re all essential questions, especially for emerging, anybody who’s new, who just doesn’t know where to start.
Rachel Hurley 3:50
But before we get to that, I do want to ask you, what are you listening to?
Joe Rudge 3:55
The problem with my job, as you know, is that I get sucked into whatever is my immediate concern. So last week, I was swapping out something for this Netflix film, I think almost exclusively listening to music from 2011 that sounded like The Lumineers and then I’m working on this Marcel the show and we need to replace like a jack jack. Right? We need to replace Wannabe by the Spice Girls. So I’ve been listening to late 90s, early aughts, bubblegum pop, radio friendly music, and then a project I’m doing for HBO Max. I’m listening to a lot of underscore so I’m listening to a lot of stuff that sounds like Cliff Martinez or Philip Glass, those two great composers, and that’s something that good to talk about as like what I do as a music supervisor is often it’s not just sitting around with great music all day. It’s very specific and tailored to the project I’m working on.
So but I think to pivot off of that, as people like to say these days, for example, one of the bands I listened to because it just sometimes there was a way to score but as a contemporary artists and listen to a lot of William Tyler. And he’s also a composer. He’s just dipping his toes into composition. But his last couple albums, all on merge records, right? So they’re so good, they’re so good, all instrumental, really enjoyed. That’s something I’ve been listening to quite a bit lately. But even last night, cooking dinner with my wife and I put on that great Jimmy Cliff live album from, I think from 1976 or 77. I’ve done it on vinyl. And it’s like, what, what a beautiful album to listen to. And that just sort of carried us through dinner. So those are like the two immediate things that just jumped out to me that music I listened to. And then I also put it in when you talk about just mellow music just acted on the great jazz guitarist Wes Montgomery, and then Charlie Christian. So it’s not always news I’m listening to it’s like, and that’s just great music because it’s- I love jazz guitar, right? And just to listen to those guys who are both masters, but completely different, from different end, I wouldn’t say Wes Montgomery and Charlie Christian are are necessarily the two extremes of jazz guitar in some ways. So anyway, that’s what I’m listening to.
Rachel Hurley 6:11
So let’s just get into like a quick round quick session of questions. So just go ahead and tell me what is the day in a life of a music supervisor? What do you do daily, what’s your job like?
Joe Rudge 6:26
Every day is something different. It’s whatever curveballs thrown at me by the products I’m working on. But at its base level, I like to divide my days either creatively, where I’m just focused on creative needs for whatever project I’m working on. And that’s essential. I can’t do paperwork, and creative at the same time, I can’t just work on creative for a couple hours, then jump into paperwork for a couple hours. So I like to concentrate on either one. And so creative always wins, right? That’s why I got into music supervision. So if I could spend one day just concentrate on the creative, that’s great. And then that’s mostly coupled with one day doing the paperwork. Because as a music supervisor, I look at my roles. As a creative producer. My job is to manage all things music related, and it could be creative. And it’s also doing budgets, making deals, making sure everything’s accounted for legally. So yeah, I’ll usually have another day, where it’s just exclusively doing the paperwork involved. Now, what’s consistent between the two is I’m always on the phone, either talking to license ORS, talking to pitch people who are sending me new music, or just catching up with contacts. So it’s important, my job is very social. So and I think part of my being a successful music supervisor, is that outreach and talking to people it’s essential.
Rachel Hurley 7:54
Set up for me how it works for you to choose the music for a project, or you sent the whole project at once and told “We need music for this scene, this scene, this scene, this scene,” are you choosing where the music goes? The director choosing where the music goes? Are they giving you like key words that they’re looking for, for specific sections of a production? Or are you coming up with all that information? How does that all work?
Joe Rudge 8:23
Yes, often I’m either given a script, and the director will ask me to read the script, and then I’ll spot it on my own all my own ideas to the table. A lot of directors do that. They want to hear where I vision the music placements and where the score would possibly go. So yeah, that is actually the most fun for me. And then, of course, if the film’s already completed, often I’ll get a rough cut. And I’ll go over the rough cut with the director. And they’ll have ideas of where they want to put music. And then I’ll say, “Well, we could also put a Music cue here, over there.” So it is collaborative. It’s pretty obvious where you should use music, right? Often, the director and I are or have the same vision because it’s as you can just see where their gaps are, where their holes are and where there should be music or montage or maybe just need music. While they’re in a restaurant, seats are pretty obvious. I say it’s pretty obvious. But this comes after all these years of experience.
Rachel Hurley 9:21
And do directors come to you saying “I want this to have like, an indie rock feel? Or “I want this to be Americana based” or “I want this to be ambient music” or are you just like, are you coming to them and saying “This is how the music should sound. This is what fits.”
Joe Rudge 9:38
No, They’ll come with ideas. All right. And then that’s my job to take that cue because you do need some guidance, right? You want it ultimately I’m here to make the director’s vision or as the best it can be. Right? I’m not the director, so I have to just compliment the director, but part of that is letting the director know “Hey, that’s a great idea, but how about we try this instead?” So that’s the important thing about collaboration. And what’s so fun about film and television? It makes it a collaborative medium. It’s never one person usually has the answer.
Rachel Hurley 10:12
So I know the one thing that probably most people ask you all the time is where do you find your music? Through people submitting it through companies? Do musicians have agents? Where do you find it?
Joe Rudge 10:24
I do work with a lot of different licensing bodies, and a handful who specialize in independent artists. And I’m always reaching out to them for music ideas, because I know they have great A&R people who are scouring all over the world to try to find great music. And then also because they make licensing easy, it’s just a very streamlined, simplified process. And that’s essential for me, because licensing is not difficult. But it’s surprising how complicated some people can make it if they don’t know how it works. So I want to work with people who make the licensing part easy. So yeah, I reach out to a lot of licensing companies and ask for ideas. And also because I’ll have a budget in mind. And I’ll tell the licensing company, this is what I have. And they’ll pitch me artists with that fee in mind. So yeah, pitch companies are huge. They’re essential to how I do my job.
Rachel Hurley 11:20
Can you name a few of them so that people know which ones to go check out?
Joe Rudge 11:25
Yeah, sure. I love Bank Robber Music. I think they’re great. I’ve worked with them a bunch. Company I’ve worked with lately called Mixtape Music I thought are great. And then look, Downtown CD Baby. I think that the same company right now, but CD Baby, I’ve had a lot of success with. And I think they’re pretty great. Tunecore are amazing. Tunecore I’ve had a lot of success with, but I think those are great places to start. And then just the indies right on their own. I work a lot with Domino, Domino publishing and record label.
Rachel Hurley 12:00
Assuming that you work directly with labels.
Joe Rudge 12:03
Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And then secretly Canadian. Write the whole CD Empire, which includes numerous group,
Rachel Hurley 12:10
Didn’t they just buy Ghostly?
Joe Rudge 12:12
Yep, they just merged with Ghostly International, which is a pretty, pretty brilliant move, because they both complement each other there. They have completely different rosters ghostly. I’ve had a lot of success with them. Love them.
Rachel Hurley 12:25
So basically, if you want to get into licensing your music, you need to either go through a distributor, sync licensing company, or be on a label that has people on staff that do that. Yeah. Do you have any advice for musicians trying to get synched deals? If they have all of that set up?
Joe Rudge 12:45
The hardest thing is getting noticed, right? But I think I don’t know if I can give him the answer to that. Because I think sometimes, you know, what you got to do is just work with the best people, right? And I think that’s the hardest thing, like, how do you get access to these great places, they have their own A&R department, so they’re going to be people out. So I think the only thing you can do though, if you’re actively trying to get sync placements, go to things like South by South West, go to local film festivals, go to even any sort of music festivals, conferences and shake hands and meet people, meet managers. I feel like that’s the best way to get out there and meet people who are in our industry. But like, look at another example. Like in Memphis, for example, you have the Memphis Film Festival, right? Just coming up. That’s what it’s first of all, it’s a great film festival. And there are all sorts of filmmakers and music publishers and record labels who are there, meet those people, get your music out there. You never know. You never know who you’re gonna be.
Rachel Hurley 13:45
I always tell people the music business is just a business of networking, and meeting people and knowing people and knowing them long enough that you can just call them up and ask them “How do I do this?” Or “How do I do that” Or “Do you know a person that does this?” or whatever.
Joe Rudge 14:01
Yeah, exactly. I mean, for example, I remember once I was flown to a festival, it was a music Film Festival in Louisville, Kentucky. I met a lot of bands there. But those bands, they knew they’re in Louisville, there’s not a lot of access to people in my industry in Louisville, Kentucky. So I think they made the effort to come to this festival and sought me out and want to talk to me about music supervision and that gave them like, that’s exactly what you need to do. Because I’m not going to come to that out there’s just too much music there’s no word
Rachel Hurley 14:34
How do you feel about people just approaching you out of the blue? Are you, like cool with that?
Joe Rudge 14:37
Yeah, I’m okay with it. I’m okay.
Rachel Hurley 14:40
Got a conference situation or can people come sit outside your place of business and just wait for you?
Joe Rudge 14:47
You know what? Absolutely. Absolutely. I always thought South by Southwest is a great example that I’m always usually going to South by Southwest to speak in a safe panel, I’ve done it three times. And look, if that person is going to show up at two o’clock on a weekday to hear me talk about music licensing, I will absolutely give them a couple minutes, right? And take their CD, take them music and hear him out. It’s just worth a shot. All right. But I do think what artists can do, though, is really, that it’s a hard approach, the chances of me then listening to that music and then placing it are slim. I think artists really need to go out there and learn like, “Okay, who’s pitching music? Who’s gonna help me?” Tunecore is a great example. I think I’ve done a lot of licensing with Tunecore for it. Where do they find those artists? I have no idea. But they every time I’ve asked for something specific they deliver.
Rachel Hurley 15:45
Well, it just seems like on a numbers level, if you get hooked up with somebody that actually pitches music, then they’re gonna pitch your music to multiple, a slew of people. But if they meet you, then you have like a slim chance of it being perfect for the production you’re working on at this moment in time.
Joe Rudge 16:07
Right. But you never know exactly. There could be that like, it’s a hail mary. But sometimes it works. All right.
Rachel Hurley 16:14
All right Can you name something that musicians make mistakes by doing?
Joe Rudge 16:18
Oh, wow. Well, one thing is like, I know everybody’s eager once they make contact with the music supervisor to then follow up, but just watch out, just blasting or annoying music supervisors. So if you’ve made that outreach, and the music supervisor responded to it, just that’s enough right there. That’s a victory in itself. I wouldn’t go on to then endlessly follow up with a music supervisor to see if they’ve listened to your music. Because by that point, you could probably annoy somebody. I mean, it is it’s a real crapshoot all of us, but it’s just like I said, you never know. It’s like sometimes you listen that one thing Oh, God, wow, that’s, that’s exactly what I’m looking for. And it happens sometimes.
Rachel Hurley 16:59
Do you share your finds with other music supervisors?
Joe Rudge 17:03
Yeah. Yeah. Well, I’m friends with a handful of other music soups. And yeah, will often say like, “Hey, listen to this, check this out.” And I have no problem doing that, especially with independent artists because they need the exposure, right? It’s not like I’ve just heard this great new artists who signed to his group, and not many people know about them. So I’m gonna keep it a secret. It’s, I found some kid who plays steel guitar in Virginia, this guy’s a fine, I’m gonna send them to a couple of music supervisor, friends, because you never know. Right? Good. That’s somebody that person probably could use the exposure.
Rachel Hurley 17:44
Is that kind of that one of the perks of the job is feeling like you’re giving new artists their big break?
Joe Rudge 17:51
Well, if I can help, music licensing, and whatever money I can throw their direction that just helps print a new record, spend more time in the studio, more time away from a day job to concentrate on writing music, and that’s the victory. I mean, there have been some bands, who you The problem is, with a lot of licensing, you’re not legally allowed to reach out in and let them know how that synthetic couple people tell me off the record that like, “Look, you know, by doing this one sync placement, you let that band tour for an extra two months.” These things really do make a difference. It’s not substantial, right? It’s not “Oh, wow, that money I could put money down for my first for my mortgage on my first home,” but but it does little things, especially with indie artists where it’s just enough money that they’re not eating McDonald’s every day, they could go to Applebee’. And that’s, and that’s important. And then also just the ego that I remember, I put an artist in the big sick that Michael Showalter, Judd Apatow down on Johnny film, and wasn’t much money. But this artist was over the moon. He couldn’t believe that he was put in this film. And he was walking on water, I guess for the rest of the year. He’s, he’s so happy. And that’s rewarding to just to know that a lot of these artists are just looking for somebody to say like, “Hey, listen to my music.” And then to think you’re put in a Judd Apatow film that I think just blows their minds. It just gives them a lot of self esteem.
Rachel Hurley 19:33
Yeah, I mean, that’s the thrill of my job too, is that you know, when I have an artist that gets in Rolling Stone or Billboard or whatever, I feel like I just got into it, you know? So I get, I get the thrill of it, not to get the thrill of telling them and everything and I have multiple clients, so they experienced it on their personal level, but I get to experience it with different artists, you know, different times, all through the year, and I don’t If I didn’t have that, like, kind of adrenaline rush, then you know, it wouldn’t be worth all the other crap I have to do.
Joe Rudge 20:07
No, no. Right. So true.
Rachel Hurley 20:10
Well, okay, that I think that’s great. I think that’s all I need.
Joe Rudge 20:14
Okay, excellent.
Rachel Hurley 20:16
Is there anything that you want to add? Is there anything that, you know, you think is helpful information?
Joe Rudge 20:24
Yeah. Look, this is such an unusual media landscape right now, five years ago, Netflix was really just starting to gear up the original productions. And now look, Apple, it has a ferocious slate of projects. It’s just, there’s so, HBO Max, right? They’re really gearing up. It’s such a great time to place music. There’s so much work and so many -here’s a huge need for music and content right now. And there are productions happening left and right, on platforms I’m even thinking of, so it’s a great time to do. And it’s a great time for artists to just be proactive and try to get their music in here somehow, because we’re in desperate need of it.
Rachel Hurley 21:08
Well, thank you so much. I really appreciate you doing this. It was fun to catch up.
Joe Rudge 21:13
It’s good to catch up. And yeah, I’m down to do this anytime. So thank you.
Rachel Hurley 21:19
Oh, thank you.
And there you have it. Thanks again to Joe for taking the time to chat with me and giving us an insider look at the world of sync licensing. Now to sum it up, Joe says get out there and network. Find the people that will go to bat for you. Whether it’s through a digital distributor, a label, a seek, agent, or even a music supervisor. Thanks for listening. If you’re interested in more insider information just like this, be sure to check out our weekly newsletter. You can sign up on sweetheartpub.com. And don’t forget to subscribe to the podcast to be notified when the next one comes out. And if you have any specific questions, feel free to reach out to me. You can tweet me or shoot me an email. I’m not hard to find. The music in this episode was created by Frank Keith of Great Peacock, and big thanks to Brandon Kendor for producing this episode. Now, go do something useful.
