A conversation with Brandon Kinder, a musician who’s been putting out records for over a decade with his band The Rocketboys and his solo project The Wealthy West. He’s landed placements in dozens of commercials, films, and television shows, including Glee, Private Practice, One Tree Hill. Vampire Diaries, Teen Mom, Intervention, Elementary, and commercials for Chase Bank and Friskies.
Since we’ve spoken to a sync agent and a music supervisor, we thought we would round out the trilogy with a musician’s side of getting music placements.
TRANSCRIPT
Rachel Hurley 0:00
Hello, everyone, I’m Rachel Hurley from Sweetheart pub. Welcome back to Music Rookie, the beginner’s guide to the music industry. This week on the show is a conversation with Brandon Kinder, a musician who’s been putting out records for over a decade with his band The Rocket Boys and his solo project, The Wealthy West. He’s also a VJ over on DTV. His music has been compared to Bonnie Bear and Band of Horses, and has been written about in Rolling Stone Paste, American Songwriter, and many, many more. He’s also landed sync licenses and dozens of commercials, films and television shows. Now since we’ve spoken to a sync agent, and a music supervisor, we thought we would round out the trilogy with a musician side of getting music placements. So let’s jump right in.
Rachel Hurley 0:59
So basically, what I really wanted to talk to you about this week was how you’ve made money as a musician, because I know you’ve managed to be a musician and not work a regular job. I know you have your ditty TV thing. I don’t know if there are other things that you do that I don’t know about, maybe. But you know, that’s always the goal for people is, they want to be a full time musician and not just doing it as a side hustle. And we’ve been talking to a lot of people about sync licensing. And I know that you’ve done a lot of that. I’ve talked to a music supervisor that I used to work for in New York, and a sync agent last week. And so, I think that from my understanding that’s been a big part of your life as a musician, too.
Brandon Kinder 1:45
Yeah, definitely.
Rachel Hurley 1:47
Why don’t we just kind of start at the beginning and give everybody kind of a general understanding of who you are and where you come from? you’re originally from Memphis, right?
Brandon Kinder 1:55
Yeah, I grew up here in Memphis and kind of started the musical, like, band journey here in Memphis. But then I moved to Texas. I was there for about 15 years.
Rachel Hurley 2:06
No, when I met you, I think you were living in Austin.
Brandon Kinder 2:08
Yeah, yeah. I was.
Rachel Hurley 2:10
So did you start your band there?
Brandon Kinder 2:12
I actually started in a small town in West Texas called Abilene, Texas. The rocket boys started there in, depending on who you talk to, 2003 was our very first show. And then we like, you know, we were all in college. And so we did what we could. Abilene was such a small town that we kind of had to think outside of Abilene. And so just touring just kind of came out of necessity. If we wanted to play multiple shows,
Rachel Hurley 2:38
Was it a lot easier back then to tour and make money? Or was it always hard?
Brandon Kinder 2:41
There was, I think it was harder to make money back then for sure. You know, because there was a lot of just like, tiny dive bars that you’d contact somebody in like, Lafayette, Louisiana and trade a show back and forth. And there wasn’t a lot of money. It was I was actually just talking to a friend of mine about like, the old days of touring, and how it used to be like, you would just save up enough money. So you could go on tour, because you were never really making very much. But we just ,you know, we kept touring for several years. And still like, things have slowed down right now. But we still do some stuff. Occasionally.
Rachel Hurley 3:19
Things have things slowed down during the pandemic.
Brandon Kinder 3:23
Imagine that. Yeah. So then I, we moved to Austin in 2009. And that’s when we like, really, I think 2008-2009 is when we started really touring, like all the time. And then it was actually because of, we were at South by Southwest and we met a guy from LA, that we have been kind of talking to a little bit who decided to manage us. And he came from the publishing world. And so with that came a lot of new opportunities for syncs and all kinds of other non-touring things up until then, they’ve just been pretty much touring and trying to sell stuff on our webstore and stuff, you know?
Rachel Hurley 4:06
I think a lot of people are kind of in the dark about the publishing world kind of means something different in different aspects where, like, I know, in Nashville, the publishing world is more like songwriting jobs, like maybe you sit in a songwriter’s room with other people and be that song and then you pitch it to a bigger songwriter, and then they record it, and then you’re making money, because you’re getting the publishing off of music that you wrote.
Brandon Kinder 4:33
Yeah, no, I, I don’t know if this is true, but I heard that Beyonce just gets 10% whether she’s there or not, which, you know, if it’s, if you get if you score a Beyonce cut, like, you’re gonna be fine.
Rachel Hurley 4:46
That’s a you know, that’s a fair thing to do. I guess. But yeah. So and then the other realm of it is kind of like we were talking about the sync licensing part. So um, and I know that you’ve both had your songs had sync licenses for different movies and television shows. And you’ve been asked specifically to write for movies or television shows? So you want to talk about kind of the different ways those things happened?
Brandon Kinder 5:13
Yeah, well, like I said, we started working with this manager out in LA, and he just kind of brought his connections to us. And so a lot of it was just, you know, looking through our catalogue, and seeing, like, what would fit for this particular TV show or whatever, we got, you know, a ton of like, no’s, and you know, a few yes’s, which has always made the no’s not hurt as bad. But then after a while, yeah, I think just because whatever people that I was working with, at the time, kind of liked what I was doing, they started asking for things specifically. And they knew that I could do it really quickly, which I think is key, especially in like, in the film and TV world, it seems like music is always the very last thing that they do. And so it’s usually like, okay, we’re looking for a song like x, and we need to buy tomorrow at noon pacific time. And so, you know, fortunately, that gives me two more hours to work on it. But it’s usually like really, really quick turnaround. And so I kind of had to get used to just coming up with something on the spot. And just recording it, writing it, mixing it all, just at once. That was definitely a challenge. But I think it helped me to grow a lot. It’s definitely gotten me a lot of opportunities, just because I was able, if I didn’t already have a song that fit what they were looking for. I could just give them something.
Rachel Hurley 6:36
Did it work that when they came and told you, because we want to get to the nitty gritty, you know, people always talk high level. And really, when people never talk about like, the minute details of things when it comes to stuff like this. Would they tell you “Oh, we’re looking for a happy song about love.” And then you go through your catalogue and say, “Well, what about these things?” And then they’re like, “No, that’s not exactly right.” Then you go back and kind of write the song. Are you just writing the song off the top?
Brandon Kinder 7:03
Oh, yeah. So sometimes, you know, they’ll hopefully you get a little bit more information than happy song about love, hopefully, at least like, we like this song, or we like this tempo range, things like that. So usually, me and my manager will look through the catalogue, see if we agree that anything is worth sending. And if not, and if we have time, then I usually don’t have enough time to send them stuff, wait for a no, and then record something. So we make a lot of decisions on the front end on whether we think I have that.
And you know, we kind of have worked with a lot of these people enough to kind of know what they’re looking for in advance. And so we can kind of judge, I don’t really have right now with what’s going to work here. So maybe let’s, let’s write the song, instead of send them something that already exists, because there’s also at least like probably 10 other people that are being asked the same thing, and they’re either gonna have it or be sending it and there’s not really enough time to wait for a no, and then, you know, usually that’s the case,
Rachel Hurley 8:04
You’re doing it at the last minute. And they’re like, I just need something by this time. So what happens if you write it and you send it in and they’re like this, isn’t it?
Brandon Kinder 8:12
Then you are sad for a moment, and then you will go to the next thing, but I’ll tell you what, the thing that’s been really encouraging for me, is, because that’s happened to me more times than I can count. But the cool thing is, if I work hard, and I try to make a good product, then I’m gonna have something good for the next time that they ask for a happy song about love that I can then turn in. And that that’s happened multiple times where the first no turned into the second. Yes. Even sometimes on the same, the same shows sometimes.
Rachel Hurley 8:45
Oh, they’re like, you know, I want Marvin Gaye, “What’s Happening” vibe. Do they give you like notes like that, where they don’t want to pay for this song, but they want to sound like that?
Brandon Kinder 8:55
Yeah, all the time. And like, one of the problems too, is that these are TV executives that don’t speak the same language. And so, and they oftentimes don’t know all the rules with publishing and master and all that stuff. They just know, I really like what’s going on. I want it to sound exactly like that. And so sometimes, like, obviously, you can’t just make it sound exactly like that. You just kind of have to fit that vibe. Yeah, I get stuff like that all the time. But for instance, I was doing a thing for Chase Bank one time. I forget the song, but it was some like 60s-70s era soul vibe. And I did this awesome version. Unfortunately, I got a couple tries with them. But I did this amazing, super, like vibey soul song. That was just the perfect thing for what they were asking for. And then they’re like, Well, no, it’s not exactly what we meant when we said, remake this exact song. And then I ended up I think the song ended up kind of being like a Coldplay vibe. They’re like, Oh, I love it. So you know, sometimes there’s a lot of communication errors that happen just because we’re speaking two different languages.
Rachel Hurley 10:01
Right. So how does it feel to hear your music and television show on a commercial?
Brandon Kinder 10:07
Oh, it’s awesome. Yeah. I mean, as a kid, as a young musician, that was kind of always one of my goals was to be on like, the Garden State soundtrack or the OC. That’s where all the coolest bands were. Just being on TV or a movie was always like one of the many dreams that I had. And so to be able to do that, it’s always super cool.
Rachel Hurley 10:29
Does it ever feel like that part of your job is more like real work versus being a rock star musician? Like, I think sometimes I feel like that’s kind of looked down upon, right? Writing to code, or I don’t know how, what you would call it, but writing something specific, rather than, you know, people thinking that I’m just gonna sit around until I feel something and then write it.
Brandon Kinder 10:53
Yeah, well, every once in a while, it does feel a little bit like a job. But then I just have to look back and think like, how awesome is this job that I just get to sit here and make music that I like, even, you know, even if it’s not what I would normally be making, I’m still gonna make the version of it that I like. And so, yeah, it’s always, it’s never too much of a downer, especially when you’re making money from it.
Rachel Hurley 11:18
Of course. And Is that how you make most of your money?
Brandon Kinder 11:21
Yeah, it is. Yeah, we did. We did. Okay, like touring wise, but definitely, like the big bills were paid from licensing.
Rachel Hurley 11:29
Right. And so can you talk about any of those numbers? What can people can expect? When we interviewed Dan Koplowitz last week, and I asked him that exact thing. I was like, what kind of rates are they? You know? And he was like, “Well, I don’t want to be vague,” and then he was vague. So what are those numbers? Like? I mean, people want to know, do I make $100,000 a song in a commercial? A Chase Main commercial? Or am I making $2,000? off that? What are the different numbers?
Brandon Kinder 11:57
Well, it’s always different. And I and I feel like over the years, all the numbers are just going down and down. That’s why I almost didn’t want to come on here and talk to you because I didn’t want to give away all my secrets. Because now there’s more people looking for this one way to make money. Because yeah, there was. We did, for instance, we did a Friskies commercial used one of our songs.
Rachel Hurley 12:24
The Rocket Boys? Cause I know you have The Wealthy West too, which is more your little project.
Brandon Kinder 12:28
Yeah, so I have to actually have three, maybe four named projects out there, but they used a Rocket Boys song. And it was like $35,000. And they used it, like they re-upped it three times, So you know, that was split between it wasn’t just to me, it was split between a lot of people. One thing that’s actually crazy about that commercial is they really liked this one song of ours. And so they were like, “Can we have the instrumental version of it?” which you always want to have your instrumental versions and your regular master. But we at this point, we did not have the instrumental already. And so we went back, and we had contacted the engineer, and we couldn’t get in touch with them. And as I mentioned before, it’s always like, we got to have it yesterday. And so after like hours of trying to get in touch with this guy, maybe like even a couple days, I just re-recorded the whole thing. Like right there. Even though we recorded the original at a studio, fortunately, I was able to, like, still get the vibe, and they never knew the wiser.
Rachel Hurley 13:31
You and the rest of the band recorded it together?
Brandon Kinder 13:34
This was like a pretty simple like acoustic type of song. So I didn’t need the whole production.
Rachel Hurley 13:40
So let’s come roll back and talk about what you just said about all the people that get paid. So like when that happens, I assume you’re paying maybe a sync agent and a manager and the other people playing or the other songwriters or what, how’s that work?
Brandon Kinder 13:54
Yeah. So on this one, we had to pay our management. And we had to pay the people that were doing the sync stuff for us. And then all the different band members had their own split. This one, there weren’t any co writers outside of the band. And we owned all the publishing. So that made it a little bit easier. And I will say people love a one stop shop. So if you can own your publishing and your master, it’ll make things a lot easier.
Rachel Hurley 14:20
So do you think it makes it harder for people on labels to get syncs or easier?
Brandon Kinder 14:25
It’s just different, to be honest. I mean, there’s kind of like maybe a couple of different communities that are doing the work because the labels have like their own teams that are pushing it. But then there’s also other people repping independent artists, and they really want it to be like a one stop thing. So on one hand, it’s easier if you own everything, but you may not have as many opportunities because the labels probably have more relationships. And so it’s kind of like, “Well do I want to make x percentage of a lot more or a bigger percentage of a lot less?” Bigger labels can also oftentimes, like push for more money and stuff.
Rachel Hurley 15:05
I guess that’s kind of the issue with being on a label in general these days is you can have more money because you are getting paid for everything directly. But the labels have the contacts to get you on a TV show, or to get you on that big NPR interview or get you on the cover of a magazine and all that stuff. So it’s like, you take a risk of getting less off right off the bat by going with a label, but there are more opportunities to do bigger things. Or you can work a little bit harder on your own and get there on your own. It’s just a different path.
Brandon Kinder 15:39
Yeah, for sure.
Rachel Hurley 15:40
Alright, so do you work with one particular sync agent or that that can only pitch your music? Are you working with many different people?
Brandon Kinder 15:50
Um, oh, can I go back a second? So the big Friskies commercial payout that is like, really, really high, especially now like, I mean, it’s not uncommon to get like a 2000 to $5,000 thing. Sometimes, like, if you can get a couple 100 bucks out of like, a college film or something, it’s a lot lower now, I think than it used to be just in general. And also because there’s a lot more content being made, until they, you know, they can’t afford to pay as much as they used to.
Rachel Hurley 16:27
It’s all about those niche audiences. So there are smaller, more dedicated audiences across the board, right?
Brandon Kinder 16:33
Yeah, exactly.
Rachel Hurley 16:35
And I remember reading about how I remember when Grey’s Anatomy first came out. And they were breaking all kinds of bands like, Snow Patrol, right? And they started off paying a lot. And then I read that by 10 years in, the rate had gone way down, because they could say, “Hey, we broke all these bands, or all these bands got bigger once they were on Grey’s Anatomy.” Do you get pitched that way that this is great exposure?
Brandon Kinder 17:05
I mean, honestly, not as much for saying stuff, but definitely for everything else.
Rachel Hurley 17:14
I think we’re talking about, my next question was, what about your sync agent? Are you working with one? Are you exclusive to them? Or do you have many people that you’re working with?
Brandon Kinder 17:24
Yeah, well, I’ve done a few things over the years. I’ve mostly worked with one agent, it was never an exclusive deal on paper. But it was pretty exclusive. There were a few things that came out of it that weren’t from her directly. But for the most part, I tried to keep it in the family.
Rachel Hurley 17:42
And so do you now that you’ve been doing this for a while? Are you getting like something once a month? Or is it once every few months? Or how often do these requests come in?
Brandon Kinder 17:53
I mean, before COVID and before they stopped making TV, I was probably getting stuff, you know, like every couple of weeks requests, and then you know, a lot of them, I have to turn down or I just don’t have time because I’m working on other parts of my music. But yeah, I mean, I probably get, you know, a couple, two or three for a month or so.
Rachel Hurley 18:14
That’s pretty decent. I mean, as long as they’re paying something that like keeps it going, right? Because I’m sure a lot of people would be happy to get like one or two requests a year. Is that how it started for you? How quickly did it take off?
Brandon Kinder 18:27
Well, I was thinking about that the other day, I think, once we started working with this manager, we had just released a record. But I think it was probably about a year before anything happened from that. And then things just kind of started growing from there. And we just started working with different music supervisors and stuff from different shows. And just getting our name out there. I went out to LA a bunch and just had meetings with as many people as I could, just to kind of, you know, get my name out there as a option for somebody to work with. Yeah, I was probably, you know, a handful of years before it started being a thing we could count on.
Rachel Hurley 19:04
And so once you started meeting with music supervisors, are you able to bypass the agent? And just have music supervisors come directly to you? Or do you always have to go through them?
Brandon Kinder 19:14
No, because the agent does a lot more than just pitch, like they’re the ones that take care of all the paperwork. And there’s a lot of legal stuff that I mean, I guess someone could do it without having an agent that they’re working with.
Rachel Hurley 19:31
Maybe they had a lawyer. I know a lot of managers are actually lawyers. So if your manager was a lawyer, maybe you could bypass having a sync agent.
Brandon Kinder 19:39
Yeah, for sure. I mean, if you know, enough supervisors then by all means, but she was also like the one who got me into those rooms. And you know, I liked that she was working hard for me and stuff that I didn’t feel the need. Plus, I felt like if she was pitching it, that’s what she does. I don’t pitch stuff and so she is the one That’s getting all the requests. And so it makes sense to me to not worry about trying to bypass that.
Rachel Hurley 20:06
So earlier you talked about being worried about coming on here and telling all your secrets. Can you tell us one secret?
Brandon Kinder 20:12
Oh, I’ve already told you like half of it.
Rachel Hurley 20:15
Oh, okay, I missed the secret part. Because all that stuff. You know, that’s, I think a lot of times people think if I give away how I do this, then you know, other people will be in competition with me. But really, the thing is, is most people won’t do the work. I can tell people how to be a publicist all day long. That’s what we do in our newsletter, I tell you everything that I do, and I’m not that worried about it, because it’s still a lot of work. And it takes, like you said, it takes years to like, get your name in the door and for people to recognize who you are. And, you know, if someone’s like, I can just, I can pitch in myself, I’m like, you go right ahead. So, yeah, I don’t think that there’s a big worry for anyone to take away from you by telling them how you do things. I think by telling people how you do things, you establish yourself as an expert in that field.
Brandon Kinder 21:10
True.
Rachel Hurley 21:11
Is there anything that you would give us advice for people that want to do this?
Brandon Kinder 21:15
Yeah, I mean, one thing, there would be no way I could do this, if I wasn’t able to record myself and I started off. I mean, you should hear the first things that I got on TV, it was like the worst sounding garbage, you know, but I was like, I’ve gotten a lot better recording now. But like, anybody can learn how to kind of record, you’ve got to be able to do it yourself. Because a lot of these literally, it’s like, we need this by tomorrow morning. And if you don’t have something that that fits what they’re looking for, then you have to either make it yourself or turn it down, you know,
Rachel Hurley 21:49
So you had to take on an extra level of experience or work to get it done.
Brandon Kinder 21:53
Yeah. And I feel like there’s plenty of like consumer grade things out there that you can start recording,
Rachel Hurley 21:59
What are your recommendations?
Unknown Speaker 22:02
For a long time, I’ve had an Apollo twin from Universal Audio. And they’re like, maybe eight or $900. But that’s the interface. So you can record into that, and that goes into your computer, the UI, Universal Audio stuff is like, killer, it’s really great. It’s kind of kind of an industry standard in a lot of ways in the way that Pro Tools is. There’s also like plenty of other DAWs out there that you could use. But I really like that and you know, you can get like you can get any sort of interface. I know focus, right makes like one that’s just a couple 100 bucks you can get you just need to record one or two channels, skit like $100 mics. I mean, it’s, it’s a little bit of an investment on the front end, but I mean, it’ll pay in dividends. It’ll be you know, and then I’ve definitely, like, upgraded over the years,
Rachel Hurley 22:48
And I see that you’ve got like a blanket on the wall. I guess that’s for soundproofing, you kind of have to have your own space, right?
Brandon Kinder 22:55
Yeah. Well, I mean, honestly, you don’t have to have your own space, if you have a laptop and something to record into it. Like, I mean, plenty of people are making music entirely on their phones these days, that can work, you know. Actually that’s there, because this house is like 90 years old. And there’s a window right there. And you can just hear everything. There’s like birds in all my recordings.
Rachel Hurley 23:20
All right. That’s a feature, not a bug.
Brandon Kinder 23:22
Yeah, exactly. But yeah, so I do have my own space, which is really nice. I can kind of do whatever I want. I’ve got a bunch of like, random instruments and stuff. But you can do so much just on a computer these days, and just, you know, listen to what’s happening on TV shows and try and like scientifically look into what they’re doing. Like, it’s okay to do homework, you know,, nobody is just born with that amount of talent and hasn’t put in some work. You know, it’s not not cool to understand what you’re doing and why. You know,
Rachel Hurley 23:54
It’s okay to know stuff. Um, so do you have any upcoming projects that you want to talk about? anything cool coming up? I know that we’re all on lockdown. And nothing’s happening. But maybe we’re working on something cool.
Brandon Kinder 24:06
Yeah, well, I’m working on a new Wealthy West record right now. I’ve kind of been, I don’t know, this whole quarantine thing’s just kind of bummed me out like, creatively, I haven’t really been as productive. I’ve done a lot of writing. I think I was just writing so I wouldn’t have to record the album, to be honest. Like, just oh, I gotta find make sure I’ve got the right songs. But yeah I just started working on that recently. And I’m just doing most of it here in my house as well. And so that’s coming out soon. I just did this pretty cool campaign with this company. This isn’t like a commercial for them. But can I mention?
Rachel Hurley 24:41
Yeah, sure.
Brandon Kinder 24:42
Yeah, there’s this company. I’ve heard about him on Facebook or Instagram called Least of All Sound Recording.
Rachel Hurley 24:48
Oh, yeah. I’ve set up one of those with Radnor and Lee when their last record came out. It’s when you record straight to vinyl.
Brandon Kinder 24:55
Yeah, yeah. So you can do it that way. But they’ve opened it up and do this thing called shut in sessions. So basically, I asked a bunch of people, I like put it out there that I was going to do this project. And it’s pretty cool. I decided you can give the company whatever song list you want, and people choose from that. And I thought, because I was working on this new record, it would be kind of cool, maybe a little bit of a gamble, but to just do songs from the new record that nobody’s heard before, rather than everybody’s favorite songs, you know? And it actually like, did really well, it’s sold out. So now I have to record a bunch of personalized songs for these people, but it’s going straight to vinyl, it’s gonna be super cool.
Rachel Hurley 25:36
What do you mean by personalized?
Brandon Kinder 25:38
Well, each one is a unique recording for that specific person that requested that song? Like, depending on I think you can max out at five minutes. And so the song length is x. And so I could use the rest of that time, you know, give a little message, thank them for, the album or something?
Rachel Hurley 25:58
Is that like something your hardcore fans wanted ordered? Or they enter for other people? Or,
Brandon Kinder 26:05
Yeah, it was crazy. Like a ton of people ordered them. I really didn’t know what to expect, especially doing it this weird way where nobody’s heard the song before. But I just thought that would kind of give a little more buzz to the album in general, just give me something to talk about that’s related to the album.
Rachel Hurley 26:20
Well, that kind of is a really special gift to send someone who is your fan. Here’s a song you haven’t heard. And I’m gonna like leave a message on it.
Brandon Kinder 26:30
I mean, it’s super cool. And there’s like, no overhead for me. So it’s just they print exactly how many are pre-ordered. And then we just split, you know, a percentage of it. So it was like kind of a no brainer.
Rachel Hurley 26:45
You just send them a file?
Brandon Kinder 26:47
Yeah, exactly.
Rachel Hurley 26:48
So do you have a release date for this record? Do you know when it will come out?
Brandon Kinder 26:53
I’m guessing it’ll probably come out sometime early next year.
Rachel Hurley 26:57
Are you on like a timetable with the Rocket Boys where you’re like, one year I do a Rocket Boys record, the next year, a Wealthy West record?
Brandon Kinder 27:05
I mean, kind of loosey goosey in a way. Yeah. And I released another album earlier this year with a new band called Future Canyons that was just entirely for sync only. So it wasn’t something that I wanted to like, put out there and like, promote and stuff. But it’s a pretty cool project. I was working with this company in LA called Position Music, to just do this kind of one off thing. It’s worked out pretty well. It’s like, they’ve gotten a couple small, I mean, you know, COVID happened as soon as I released it, so but they’ve still like got it on a couple things here and there. So I’m just always trying to like have like, a few irons and a few different fires, you know.
Rachel Hurley 27:45
That could be another secret- Form a second band and write music. Just thinking about this would sound great. And a commercial or this would sound great. And an end credit or whatever. Yeah.
Brandon Kinder 28:00
Totally. Yeah, I mean, people do that, a ton of people do that. The reason I found out about them is because my friend had a secret band through the same company. And he like introduced me to them. A lot of supervisors like the idea that they’re going to be the one to break the artists because it’s on their show. And so a lot of people want it to be a band, and not just some guy. So, there’s just so many rules, and they don’t apply half the time. And sometimes they do, you know, but I feel like it makes sense to have the band identity for some of this stuff, especially if you don’t already have a lot of relationships in the industry. People want to help a man, you know. Everybody that’s not playing on a stage that is in the music business does it because they love music, and want to help the people that are making it, you know, and so they want to be a part of lifting that band up to start, you know?
Rachel Hurley 28:53
it makes them feel like it’s more authentic.
Brandon Kinder 28:56
Yeah, exactly.
Rachel Hurley 29:02
It’s not just some canned music or anything, or just some guy that sits in his basement or his extra room. So how far do you have to go with this secret band idea? Do you have to set up social media for it or a website?
Brandon Kinder 29:18
I don’t have a website, but I think I did set up like all the main social media sites, just in case something happens or you know, like, if I you know, if something happens, then I can like thank the people that are involved from that page, you know,
Rachel Hurley 29:33
Right. And so does it happen with you now, since you have so many different projects that you go to start writing a song or write some music. And you start out and you’re like, this is a Rocket Boy song? No, this is a Wealthy West song. No, this is a canyon. What was it called? Future Canyons song.
Brandon Kinder 29:51
Not as much anymore. But when I was first starting the Wealthy West basically it was just a side project that my management forced me into. Back in 2011, I was just writing a bunch of music, you know, is mostly for the Rocket Boys. But then there was some times where it didn’t really fit, but it wasn’t going anywhere else. And so my managers were always trying to convince me to do something with this extra music because they thought it was cool. And then I was always like, No, I just want to focus on the Rocket Boys. And then it was, I think, the year SXSW 2011. They’re like, Okay, well, you really got to do something with this project, because we’ve got it picked up on like three TV shows, and Paste Magazine wants you to play their SXSW party, I was like, okay, I guess like, I’ll see what happens, I’ll do something with it. And then it’s been great ever since then. And I kind of know who I’m writing for. But like you mentioned before, it’s better if I can just give the time to each one. So whenever I’m done writing a Rocket Boy album, then I’ll kind of allow myself to get back into the Wealthy West frame of mind. And you know, but I’m also just constantly writing other stuff that I can, you know, see where it can fit in.
Rachel Hurley 31:02
How many songs do you think you write a year?
Brandon Kinder 31:04
Just write? I mean, probably 50 or 60? Its probably kind of low, maybe, I wouldn’t say more than 100 songs, though. But I mean, I write like, all the time, you know, because that’s my job. It’s what I do, so.
Rachel Hurley 31:23
Right, right. Yeah. It’s interesting, because I won’t mention who the artist was. But I was in this online conference today. And this person was complaining a little bit about due to COVID and the way that the music business works now, this person was expected to know how to record themselves doing a live stream and do things at home and create content. Her big thing was about creating content, you know that now, this was like, an extra layer of responsibility that she didn’t really like having on her. But I feel like all these things, because obviously, I’m a publicist. But you know, we delve a little bit into marketing too, because it’s kind of similar. It’s not exactly the same thing. And you know, but the artist needs help with it. And definitely talking about social media with them, and content creation. And, you know, it’s all these extra things, and new things that I have to figure out or dive into or read about, that kind of keeps everything interesting for me. I think that if you only had one thing you were doing over and over and over again, it would get pretty boring. So I assume because you have so many different irons in the fire, it kind of keeps things fresh.
Brandon Kinder 32:36
Oh, yeah, for sure. And I mean, I think that’s probably the huge complaint with a lot of people is just having to make content. You know, like, all the sudden, I’m expected to be an expert at something and talk about it all the time when I just want to make music. But I think you know, the music business is always changing. There’s always new rules, and some people will excel at following the trends, and some people will get stuck behind, you know.
Rachel Hurley 33:00
I just think people forget that there’s only a very short amount of time, in the 20th century, that people were able to take music and become multi multimillionaires with it, right? Were able to make all this money and live these dream lifestyles just like a 50 year period, really, you know, where it was really open to the masses. And you didn’t have to come from a great, a rich background, even be able to take lessons or buy instruments or all that, you know, over the course of humankind. People have always made music, but they didn’t make money from it. And so now people are having to do a little bit extra and do different things and learn new ways to do things and be creative. And you know, I think they’re pissed that they aren’t, you know, it’s like, not 1982. And there’s only three radio stations. And if you’re good, then they play you 10 times an hour, whatever it is, you got to do all these other things.
Brandon Kinder 34:03
And yeah, I mean, the music creation is so easy right now. I mean, anybody can make music that sounds pretty good. You know, it may not be a good song, but it could sound great. And so there’s just so much to choose from. So yeah, you really got to set yourself apart somehow and grab people’s attention.
Rachel Hurley 34:19
Well, cool. I mean, I think you gave us a lot of good information. I’m sure a lot of people will be interested in hearing this stuff just because it is a new thing. One of the other things I heard in this online conference a day from the president of Rounder, I think that’s what it was talking about how really after a record comes out, it’s usually 12 months away from getting a sync license. Nothing happens quickly. Even once they get that music out to people that can pitch it. It’s a long ride. And for you, I think it’s just like it’s ended up being cyclical, you know, you’ve got enough irons in the fire that you’ve got things coming back. So anyone starting out, it’s gonna take a long time to get it going. But once you get it going, it’ll keep
Brandon Kinder 35:00
Yeah, exactly. And now, I mean, for the last album I had syncs before the album came out, you know, from that out, you know. So that’s, that’s been my experience. But yeah, it’s because I just am constantly working and putting out new stuff, whether it’s a band idea, or just something for sync only.
Rachel Hurley 35:19
So would you say that’s the main way that you make your money back on making records is through sync licensing?
Brandon Kinder 35:25
I would say that has a lot to do with it. But also, I mean, I sell albums and people stream my albums, and since I own all the publishing then and all the masters for the for the most part I’m not dying on Spotify.
Rachel Hurley 35:41
Right? Well, I mean, yeah. So I think that people are still trying to figure out, can they sell enough records to make it worth their while?
Brandon Kinder 35:48
I mean, it is crazy. Because, like, especially just if we’re talking physical CDs, like bands still sell them, I still sell them here and there. But like, I don’t even have a CD player. Most of my friends don’t have CD players. And so, no, you used to order like, minimum of 1000 CDs when you first you know, we’re about to go on tour after the album came out. And then now it’s like, well, do I even need 1000 shows to get 500, am I going to sell 500 CDs?
Rachel Hurley 36:16
And I just think it matters if like if you have a hardcore fan base, and they want the experience of buying a CD from you, maybe having you sign it and it’s like a trinket, right? Like it’s you’re buying a memory. That’s the thing is they don’t it doesn’t have to be the CD. It can be a poster now. It can be a T-shirt, it could be a key chain, or any type of merchandise. Well, is there anything we didn’t cover that you think’s important?
Brandon Kinder 36:44
I think we’ve covered just about everything. I mean, I would say yeah, the main things that I’ve tried to do is just be aware of what’s on TV, and how like the directions that I think I’m capable of following and then just be able to do it yourself quickly. That’ll get you pretty far if you work hard enough.
Rachel Hurley 37:05
Do you have a catalogue of soundtracks you go to? I remember I used to buy soundtracks and movies and then
Brandon Kinder 37:11
they’re like the Batman Returns soundtrack.
Rachel Hurley 37:15
I think like Vinnie in June.
Brandon Kinder 37:18
Yeah, did they do that anymore?
Rachel Hurley 37:20
They do, there’s still soundtracks to movies and there are still like kind of music based television shows that put out soundtracks. I know that. You know, I think killing Eve has a soundtrack because it’s got a really strange music. I don’t know what you call it there. I know when I first watched killing Eve, I was like, Who is this music supervisor? Because this music is crazy. And I had to go check out all you know, where they got all this stuff.
Brandon Kinder 37:47
Yeah, man. I love when I watch a new show. It’s just like, this supervisor is killing it. Like these songs are all so cool. I would love to get on.
Rachel Hurley 37:55
And they’re almost like a second character.
Brandon Kinder 37:57
Yeah, totally. I mean, yeah, music, a TV/Film without music would be so boring. I think. Well, I don’t know. The office was pretty funny. I don’t think there’s much music on there. But yeah, like it really can set a scene, it can make you trust or not trust a character, like it can do so much to enhance what’s happening, for sure.
Rachel Hurley 38:15
Set the scene.
Brandon Kinder 38:17
Well, thanks so much for letting me get your ear off a little bit.
Rachel Hurley 38:20
Oh, no, I love it. And thanks for giving us all your secrets.
Brandon Kinder 38:23
Oh, my pleasure.
Rachel Hurley 38:25
And there you have it. Thanks again to Brandon Kinder for taking the time to chat with me. To sum it up, in order to really use sync licensing as a tool to bring in a regular income, you have to have a lot of irons in the fire at all times. It’s also highly recommended that you be able to record stuff on the fly, and be a one stop shop when it comes to publishing. You might even want to start your own secret band that just makes music that works for syncs.
Thanks for listening. If you’re interested in more insider information just like this, be sure to check out our weekly newsletter. You can sign up on sweetheartpub.com. And don’t forget to subscribe to the podcast to be notified when the next one comes out. If you have a specific question about this episode or anything at all, feel free to reach out. You can tweet me or shoot me an email. I’m not hard to find. The music in this episode was created by Frank Keith of Great Peacock. Big thanks to Brandon Kinder for producing this episode. Now, go do something useful.
